Comments on: Hymn #2: Amazing Grace

By: Evangeline

Evangeline — Fri, 30 Oct 2009 14:19:22 +0000

I see Rebecca’s point, and I see Leland’s point too. It is a VERY powerful story anyway – and sometimes I want to ignore facts and believe the story…

For me, the just-as-interesting-point is the black notes for black spirituals. I’ve been a musician basically all my life and I never saw or heard that before!

By: Heather J.

Heather J. — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:06:10 +0000

This was a fantastic post – thank you so much.

By: Sherry

Sherry — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 18:04:07 +0000

It is a speculative story, to say the least, but I just couldn’t let that spoil it for me.

By: rebecca

rebecca — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 17:08:45 +0000

So the “anachronism” Haykin complains of may be simply the arrogance of the literate.

I just want to make clear that I’m the one who pointed to the first publishing date of that tune, not Haykin. I’m guessing he draws his conclusion from more data than that. He’s a historian, and he’s pretty careful.

My only point was to say the story is doubtful.

By: caite

caite — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 14:12:12 +0000

well, whether the story is true or not, it is a great video.

By: Amy @ Hope Is the Word

Amy @ Hope Is the Word — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 13:47:06 +0000

Hmmmm. . . I’ve been *sort of* keeping up with the hymns, but I have a notoriously bad memory, so maybe I won’t guess something you’ve already listed. . .

“The Old Rugged Cross”?

By: Leland Bryant Ross

Leland Bryant Ross — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 09:45:40 +0000

And Rebecca, while it's true that NEW BRITAIN (aka AMAZING GRACE, aka McINTOSH, aka aka aka) wasn't published until the late 1820s or early 1830s, that doesn't mean it can't have been sung earlier. It's not an art song, where you can point to a composer and a location and a time and say, that was when and where it came from. So the "anachronism" Haykin complains of may be simply the arrogance of the literate. The slaves Phipps talks about were mostly almost certainly illiterate (be it is writing or in musical notation); to jump from this fact to the conclusion that they had no melodies to sing is just silly. On the other hand, there is no evidence earlier than ca. 1830 that this tune was used with Newton's text, and certainly no evidence that I've ever seen (and I've asked around) that Newton composed the text for this tune. So Phipps's account is probably not historically grounded, but it's powerful nonetheless. And it could even be true. We may find out in heaven. It's true that the Pentatonic scale Phipps talks about was probably in use by the slaves in the ships, too, but it's also true that this scale is widespread in European folk music as well, including the British folk traditions that Newton would have grown up with.

By: Leland Bryant Ross

Leland Bryant Ross — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 09:35:47 +0000

Silent Night?? (I’m fairly sure it won’t be Before Jehovah’s Aw[e]ful Throne.) I must have a fairly large blind spot.

By: rebecca

rebecca — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 08:02:34 +0000

I listened to a lecture by Michael Haykin, church historian, and in it he criticized the Amazing Grace movie because of the anachronistic use of that tune for Amazing Grace. That tune wasn’t used, said he, until after the time of Newton and Wilberforce. And Cyberhymnal gives the date for that tune as 1831, 24 years after Newton died.

So I do think there’s reason to doubt the Wintley Phipps story. It’s a pity, because it’s a good one.

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